Curse

Shadowspawn X · Nov 17, 2008, 01:59 PM // 13:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Productivity

Even at five minutes, FA is very easy to win - I synched in with a few friends yesterday for the increased cap and had three easy wins -

You and a few of your buddies synced, so four guys with coordinated builds and probably on vent, had a three game winning steak in a 8 vs 8 random arena? Who wouldn't win under those circumstances?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Productivity

amazing what people who know what the objectives are can do.

I wouldn't dismiss everyone in there as being clueless. Its just my opinion that some don't have the discipline to win. You always had people who completely understand the object of the match, however these individuals get into grudge matches outside of the fort and engage in target fixation long after the target is no longer a threat to achieving the main objective. With the shorter duration of the match this behavior is much more devastating than it was before the update. Add a couple of those guys to your team with the obligatory leaver and its gg for Luxons.

goser · Nov 17, 2008, 03:08 PM // 15:08

FA is unbalanced in favor of kursick cause of the crappy Ai of the turtles and the skills used by kursick npc.

Just by standing in a good spot , a kursick can make the turtle firing into the wall for the entire match. This is an exploit and only Anet can fix it, but they don't meh...

And almost all skills used by kursick npc are anti-melee. So if luxons have more than 2 melee in their team , it's a very hard run! Ranger are not good at all also. Best is an all casters team.

So don't expect to win if you don't play a caster for luxon at FA.

beregond · Nov 17, 2008, 03:27 PM // 15:27

FA has always been unbalanced. Generally unbalanced in the Kurzicks favor. Luxons just have bad luck sometimes, but it is for the most part easy to break through and win.

Servant of Kali · Nov 17, 2008, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by goser

FA is unbalanced in favor of kursick cause of the crappy Ai of the turtles and the skills used by kursick npc.

Just by standing in a good spot , a kursick can make the turtle firing into the wall for the entire match. This is an exploit and only Anet can fix it, but they don't meh...

You can't say it's imbalanced because of one single element. Interesting enough, a year ago I was listening how Luxon NPCs are overpowered because warriors plow through everything and turtle bombards.

And you know what? It's true. Luxon NPCs are superior. Let's say both side do nothing. Who wins? Luxons. Juggernaut is so useless that in 95% cases doesn't even reach any Luxon. Kurzick NPCs in the middle are permanently dead and don't respawn. Etc etc

Turtle AI is fine. You can complain as much as you want, but both sides have NPCs and no NPC AI is perfect. The turtle does its job. It's not AI's fault that Luxon players dont kill those standing in the way of the turtle. Sorry, but this is PvPvE not full PvE. You can't just stand and watch while everything is done by itself.

Numbers tell of balance and imbalance. All these "reasons" and "arguments" listed in this thread are for the most part useless and simple whinning.

That's all I have to say. Now go on blaming everyone else when you lose. Yeah, players in FA aint perfect - go back to GvG. Yeah, AI in FA isn't perfect - go program better AI and make your own game. Simple.

kosh · Nov 17, 2008, 03:50 PM // 15:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyper.nl

Play MB ele and take Rend Enchants against bonds and you will own the Kurzicks in Aspenwood. Or just monk the turtles all the time.

fixed that for you ^^

anyhow, after playing in FA from luxon side for over 2 years, i can say this:

yes its harder now to win from luxon side, bur wasn't it always side? ppl play luxon side because from kurzik its so damm easy,all u need 1 monk a rit to keep npc up. it they would fix anything they should not let rangers from kurzik side get npcs at mines with longbow,and the fact that a single person being healed can hold the turtle forever.

on the update, idk i like getting to the green is getting me 2,500 faction which is much then the old 800 for wining! 160 for losing, its about time!.

Gforce · Nov 17, 2008, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Disclaimer: I only read the OP

When talking about FA balance there are 2 kinds of balances:
-Faction gain luxon and kurzick side over time is equal
-Chance to win is equal for both luxon and kurzick

While the first statement might be true, the second one definately is not.

The biggest problem is all builds are useful as a kurzick (some more effective then others), while on the luxon only a few can really do something (Defy Pain tank hitting the eles anyone?)

Another problem is that a player who does what to do has more influence on kurzick side then on luxon side. If you enter as monk and keep healing the npcs, you will only lose to a luxon team with atleast a few good players.

Also, it is very easy for kurzick players to kill / shutdown the siege turtles, which are the only help the luxons get.

The final fight at gunther is probably the worst balanced situation, just because the kurzicks ressurect so much closer...

On the effects of the update:
Since FA is now a decent way to gain kurzick faction, a lot of kurzick monks popped up, while most luxon players are still clueless...

Shasgaliel · Nov 17, 2008, 04:05 PM // 16:05

hmmmmm was it not designed to be easier for kurzicks when Jade Quarry is easier for luxons? It seems logical, that kurzick have more chances on their own territory and luxons on theirs. Fort Aspenwood was never balanced, and the proportion of kurzick wins seems not to be changed after the update.

maraxusofk · Nov 17, 2008, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wrath of m0o

Its alot like RA..it depends on the players that determine who's going to win..

u do know that is basically everything in guild wars that involves other players right?

goser · Nov 17, 2008, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Quote:

Turtle AI is fine. You can complain as much as you want, but both sides have NPCs and no NPC AI is perfect. The turtle does its job. It's not AI's fault that Luxon players dont kill those standing in the way of the turtle.

You're right lol. Turtles are doing their job when they try to attack unreachable targets. My mistake, this AI is working fine!

Useless but working fine...

Tar Ionwe · Nov 17, 2008, 07:16 PM // 19:16

I have started playing the Luxon side because you can get into battles a lot faster than on the Kurzick side. My first 10 battles we won at least 7/10 (as Luxon). It was just a matter of keeping the turtles alive and other tactics, mainly stripping enchants and the sort. For most of the battles the Kurzicks had bonders and other monks and we still beat them. So in my opinion Luxon side can win, it isn't that hard.

Celeborn10 · Nov 17, 2008, 07:46 PM // 19:46

What if 8v8 organized teams were able to fight on FA/JQ? It would have to have a balancing limit of no more than 2-3 players of the same class on the same team (preventing Kurzick teams of 4 monks/4 RestoRits). Its potential is wasted by being an easily exploitable Random Arena.

FA/JQ is advertised on the official site as being a prime place for "Cross Training for GvG". This was probably applicable when a higher standard of player played them at the outset of Factions. However there are some major flaws in the basis of Aspenwood that make it worse than RA:

1. Dying

Quote:

Unlike most other PvP venues, you won't need a resurrection signet here. If you die in Fort Aspenwood, you have a mere six second wait before revival at a Resurrection Shrine. (

Dying in Aspenwood is relatively insignificant due to the lack of Death Penalty and that the respawn time is relatively quick. No teamates have to carry Rezzes to get you back into the game in a quick fashion. Dying can even be beneficial as it can restore a character's energy. However this may also lead to a player not weaponswapping or using that extra skillslot for extra defense.

2. Risk vs Reward
Dying is not even penalized with the Death Penalty as it is in RA leading to "[the player] can take risks more freely than might otherwise" mentality. While this is establishes a lower bar for the sake of newer players it does "[forgive] mistakes and bad positioning". More importantly, it doesn't dissuade a new player from using suicidal things like Superior Runes as much as if they had death penalty. FA would be much more interesting if Death Penalty were accrued with each death (no more 4 Kurzick monks with infinite energy pools every 6 seconds). Another possibility would be having players respawn every 30 seconds with Luxons respawning at the turtles (mobile command centers), increasing the importance of the turtles.

3. Randomness
FA would be better off if teams were limited to a specific number of players per class on each side. No more blasted trying to blind 4 Rangers all with Antidote Sig/Mending Touch and spamming interrupts. No more trying to shut down 4 different monks all by yourself. More diverse and balanced teams need to happen on both sides for the game to be more rewarding and balanced. Shutting someone down should matter as should killing them.

4. Exploits
They have always existed in some way but something needs to be done about being able to pop a spirit at the top of the hill and keeping the turtle stuck there. There needs to be either a response from Anet acknowledging it as an exploit and letting it be reported or it should be fixed.

Summary: At the very least Random teams should have a mechanic restricting the number of classes. Dying should have more serious connotations (ie a Death Penalty or change in respawn time although unlikely to happen). FA should be a place 'easy to learn, harder to master' instead of a place that is 'easy to learn, scrubs think they master'. (I would personally want it to be a means of getting new players into GvG) In the end it should promote and reward skillful play instead of being a festering sore upon the face of GW PvP.

Hailey Anne · Nov 17, 2008, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by caym

we should all just stop whining.

This is the only part of your post that needed quoting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyper.nl

Play Savannah Heat ele and take Rend Enchants against bonds and you will own the Kurzicks in Aspenwood. Or just monk the turtles all the time.

Monking turtles is pointless half the time.
You get 1 ranger on each turtle and theyre useless.
Then you have a monk whos healing your SH eles who are doing nothing against a bonded gate. Even with rend a decent monk can fight through a SH ele easy. Hell I do it with my rit with just Weapon of warding and 1 other heal. Not that hard.

pin · Nov 17, 2008, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celeborn10

What if 8v8 organized teams were able to fight on FA/JQ? It would have to have a balancing limit of no more than 2-3 players of the same class on the same team (preventing Kurzick teams of 4 monks/4 RestoRits). Its potential is wasted by being an easily exploitable Random Arena.

FA should stay random 8v8 play. FA and JQ are the only places were you can screw up and because there are so many people and npcs around no one will probably notice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celeborn10

FA/JQ is advertised on the official site as being a prime place for "Cross Training for GvG". This was probably applicable when a higher standard of player played them at the outset of Factions. However there are some major flaws in the basis of Aspenwood that make it worse than RA:

1. Dying
Dying in Aspenwood is relatively insignificant due to the lack of Death Penalty and that the respawn time is relatively quick. No teamates have to carry Rezzes to get you back into the game in a quick fashion. Dying can even be beneficial as it can restore a character's energy. However this may also lead to a player not weaponswapping or using that extra skillslot for extra defense.

2. Risk vs Reward
Dying is not even penalized with the Death Penalty as it is in RA leading to "[the player] can take risks more freely than might otherwise" mentality. While this is establishes a lower bar for the sake of newer players it does "[forgive] mistakes and bad positioning". More importantly, it doesn't dissuade a new player from using suicidal things like Superior Runes as much as if they had death penalty. FA would be much more interesting if Death Penalty were accrued with each death (no more 4 Kurzick monks with infinite energy pools every 6 seconds). Another possibility would be having players respawn every 30 seconds with Luxons respawning at the turtles (mobile command centers), increasing the importance of the turtles.

Bringing death penalty in FA would seriously cripple people. Deaths occur too much on both sides and in a short order you would be rendered useless. The Luxons are easy to pick off when trying to break thru the inner purple and orange gates, and turtles do big damage when they are both inside. It would hamper any kind of training benefit for gvg because you would have to modify your bar to include more self healing and defense. The current no dp gives you the freedom to experiment with different skills and set ups. FA is a great place to experiment, I would see different setups on gw obs and try them out at FA to see what made them work. I may swap out a skill if it doesn’t make sense in a random format but the bar would essentially remain the same.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celeborn10

3. Randomness
FA would be better off if teams were limited to a specific number of players per class on each side. No more blasted trying to blind 4 Rangers all with Antidote Sig/Mending Touch and spamming interrupts. No more trying to shut down 4 different monks all by yourself. More diverse and balanced teams need to happen on both sides for the game to be more rewarding and balanced. Shutting someone down should matter as should killing them.

I like the idea of limited classes on each side but how would the game know the difference between a smiter and a healer/prot monk or a damage rit vs a resto rit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celeborn10

4. Exploits
They have always existed in some way but something needs to be done about being able to pop a spirit at the top of the hill and keeping the turtle stuck there. There needs to be either a response from Anet acknowledging it as an exploit and letting it be reported or it should be fixed.

The spirit exploit was fixed in a previous gw build.

The Meth · Nov 17, 2008, 09:12 PM // 21:12

If turtles were fixed it so they wouldn't get stuck it would be ok. The problem is that is it INSANELY easy to screw up the turtles. Once turtles are down the match basically becomes a GvG except that all players respawn completely every 5 seconds, have no DP, and one side just has to stay alive for a few minutes to win. Ohh, and the attacker team probably has no good coordination to be able to spike down specific targets well because its an expanded RA format.

If two teams of good players face off in FA the kurzick team has a massive advantage. Luxons winning means that the kurzicks sucked a bit more then the luxons did in that match. The map is the very definition of unbalanced, and if you had organized smart teams I would expect the kurzicks to win 90% of the time regardless of what the time limit was. The only saving grace of the FA balance is that it is mostly random team assignments and the average player there is of very low skill.

I will say that the faster matches are much more exciting though. Which is good, because I don't play for faction or wins.

Shadow Kurd · Nov 17, 2008, 09:42 PM // 21:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

Turtle AI is fine. You can complain as much as you want, but both sides have NPCs and no NPC AI is perfect. The turtle does its job. It's not AI's fault that Luxon players dont kill those standing in the way of the turtle. Sorry, but this is PvPvE not full PvE. You can't just stand and watch while everything is done by itself.

Turtles shooting walls and staying at the gate just waiting to get killed is perfectly fine...... AS A KURZICK THAT IS !!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

go program better AI and make your own game. Simple.

By your logic we shoudnt have a forum or a community? Why even bother playing online? If you dont like something you just 1 2 3 and make your own game.

Hyper Cutter · Nov 17, 2008, 11:26 PM // 23:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celeborn10

FA would be better off if teams were limited to a specific number of players per class on each side.

All of PVP would be better off that way, I think.

Red Sonya · Nov 18, 2008, 12:20 AM // 00:20

It's funny it seems to be the common rule here if the side you play on or the things you do in the game aren't in your favor then the game is unbalanced. lol That's really so funny. You didn't hear any luxon players whinning and QQing when the luxon side was winning 80% of the time. Now that the kurzicks are winning more often and things are at a 50/50 balance they are howling to the moon about imbalance this and imbalance that. lol But, that is the way of GW and Guru really. This is more of a whiners corner place to come than it is a forum about neat and fair things in GW.

@Shadow Kurd
If you NEED turtles to win the match then that proves you aren't a very good player. All you need are a couple of disenchanters and a couple of touch rangers and you can plow through the gates on the luxon side. I know we've done it and recently. Once you can get people to forget the npc's in the middle and just go directly to the green gate npc's and you are smart enough to lure the juggernaut away from the gate...kill him, then go for the elementalist then the others you can win easily and a lot.

So, once again it is not imbalanced it is the ignorance of the players on the luxon side and how they play (rambo's a lot of them want to solo or 1v1 too much).

Also, because of the new faction gains for the time being you're going to see more players in FA and thus more ignorant players and not as many good players. So, suck it up, live with it and change your builds and you might win sometimes.

kona · Nov 18, 2008, 01:29 AM // 01:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

It's funny it seems to be the common rule here if the side you play on or the things you do in the game aren't in your favor then the game is unbalanced. lol That's really so funny. You didn't hear any luxon players whinning and QQing when the luxon side was winning 80% of the time. Now that the kurzicks are winning more often and things are at a 50/50 balance they are howling to the moon about imbalance this and imbalance that. lol But, that is the way of GW and Guru really. This is more of a whiners corner place to come than it is a forum about neat and fair things in GW.

@Shadow Kurd
If you NEED turtles to win the match then that proves you aren't a very good player. All you need are a couple of disenchanters and a couple of touch rangers and you can plow through the gates on the luxon side. I know we've done it and recently. Once you can get people to forget the npc's in the middle and just go directly to the green gate npc's and you are smart enough to lure the juggernaut away from the gate...kill him, then go for the elementalist then the others you can win easily and a lot.

[iro]..sure, let's just forget about turtles, npcs, balance and stuff. just get everyone on the luxon side to run touch rangers, disenchanters or heal/prot hybrid's and uber-charge thru the fortress
Insane amount of Kurzick Heal Rits and monks will be too scared to outheal them...
and of course I've never seen caster-hate on the kurzick side either. [/iro]

counterbuilds != balance

Quote:

So, once again it is not imbalanced it is the ignorance of the players on the luxon side and how they play (rambo's a lot of them want to solo or 1v1 too much).

Also, because of the new faction gains for the time being you're going to see more players in FA and thus more ignorant players and not as many good players. So, suck it up, live with it and change your builds and you might win sometimes.

deal with it, FA has been broken forever. before the update went online, FA has been a FUN Arena that didn't matter at all.
NOW it does matter, because raging hfff kids want easy factions and swarming FA with monks is idiot-proof right now

byteme! · Nov 18, 2008, 01:38 AM // 01:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

a couple of touch rangers

I have nothing against Touch Rangers but this forum is very unforgiving. I suspect someone is gonna use this against you.

On a personal note. I've been screwing Touch Rangers all weekend long. D-Shot one of their attacks and cripple. Good for laughs. I pissed off quite a few Touch Rangers. Doesn't require much luck to D-Shot the right skill either. I mean every Touch Ranger who gets within striking distance of an enemy goes 1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,3 (need energy), 1,2,1,2,1,2 (D-Shotted!!!!) ZOMG it's the effin Ranger again!!!! Grrr he's a dead man!!! D'oh! He crippled me!!!!

HawkofStorms · Nov 18, 2008, 01:44 AM // 01:44

The reason kurzicks have it easier is because they don't have to "do" anything but wait. Luxons actually have to complete an objective to win. Kurzicks just have to survive. That's not to say its not balanced. Its just when you have luxons who don't know wtf they are doing (ie, not bothering to attack the green gate NPCs when they break through), the kurzicks have it easier.